Education Matters
Education Matter aims to provide the public with real facts about the state of public education in North Carolina. The weekly series explores everything from the history of public education to the impact of legislation and policy decisions on our public schools.
Education Matters
Episode 254: Innovating School Nutrition in NC
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On this episode, we’re exploring the importance of school nutrition and the innovative strategies being used to ensure every student has access to healthy, consistent meals. We’re joined by leaders from the Carolina Hunger Initiative, the Department of Public Instruction and the Department of Agriculture to discuss the challenges, opportunities, and bold ideas shaping the future of school nutrition.
Guests:
Dr. Jessica Soldavini, Research Specialist, Carolina Hunger Initiative/School Meals for All NC and Asst. Professor at the Gillings School of Global Public Health at UNC - Chapel Hill
Rachel Findley, Sr. Director of School Nutrition, NC Department of Public Instruction
Heather Lifsey, Marketing Specialist, NC Department of Agriculture
Welcome to Education Matters, presented by the Public School Forum of North Carolina. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Ann Wolf. On today's episode, we're exploring the importance of school nutrition and the innovative strategies being used to ensure that every student has access to healthy, consistent meals. We're joined by leaders from the Carolina Hunger Initiative, the Department of Public Instruction, and the Department of Agriculture to discuss the challenges, opportunities, and bold ideas shaping the future of school nutrition. We are so pleased to be joined by Dr. Jessica Soldavini, research specialist at the Carolina Hunger Initiative, an assistant professor at the Gilling School of Global Public Health at UNC Chapel Hill and School Meals for All NC. Rachel Finlay, Senior Director of School Nutrition at the North Carolina Department of Public Instruction, and Heather Lifsey, Marketing Specialist at the North Carolina Department of Agriculture. Welcome to all of you. I'd love to start by hearing a little bit about why school nutrition is such a critical part of students' overall success, both in and outside the classroom. And you each bring a different angle and perspective to this work. So I'd love to hear from each of you. Jessica, can we start with you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so kids can't learn if they're hungry. Students who eat school meals have been shown to do better in school. And school meals programs have also been shown to improve diet quality and improve food security among students. Food is the most important school supply, and school meals play a really critical role in ensuring that students have access to the nutritious meals that they need to succeed.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Rachel. We have students who came, we're recorded on Monday. We have students who came into the cafeteria today and didn't have anything to eat since lunch on Friday. And so as Jessica mentioned, hungry students can't learn. And the research is also very clear that school nutrition programs serve healthier lunches than what students bring from home. What students and students that eat school meals eat more fruits and vegetables than students who do not eat school meals. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Heather. And just to add to what these ladies have already said, school nutrition is a fantastic opportunity for students to be exposed to foods that they may not get at home. Their families may not be buying fresh local produce. And so if a school is serving that and a kid is exposed to a peach, finds out they like it because they're more willing to try if it's at school food in the cafeteria, then that increases their successes in school, but also increases their palate, changes their palate, uh, and makes lifestyle choices outside of the classroom as well.
SPEAKER_04Well, thank you. I appreciate that so much. And I know that our schools do face several challenges in ensuring that students have access to healthy, consistent meals. And it's what you all spend your days really working on and focused on. Heather, can you talk a little bit about those biggest challenges?
SPEAKER_01I think one of the biggest challenges is funding. Um, fresh produce costs more, local may cost more. And so when you have school nutrition programs that are already struggling to pay the food bill, um, and it comes down to pennies. And that was one of the things I didn't understand about school food until I started working with farm to school is you're talking pennies. And if you have fresh apple that's 11 cents a serving and applesauce that's six cents a serving, those schools are going to have to make the hard decision. They want to serve the fresh fruit, but they can't afford that 11 cents. So they go with the six cents because they're still getting a serving of apple. Um, so I think that's one of the biggest challenges is being able to afford the food that they want to put on these students' plates at breakfast and lunch every day. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Rachel, what do you see as some of the biggest challenges?
SPEAKER_02Funding. Funding, funding, funding. So the maximum reimbursement that a school district may get in our state is $4.69. And that encompasses everything that is used in that meal. It encompasses the food, it encompasses the labor. But we've estimated that it takes on average more than $5 to make that meal. So every day those doors open in a cafeteria, they're in a budget shortfall just by opening those doors. And so we really, it is, it is absolutely critical for us to receive additional funding. That is, that is the biggest piece.
SPEAKER_04And Jessica, do you see additional challenges? I know you work in in many different places as well.
SPEAKER_03Another challenge related to funding is also just ensuring that schools are able to provide the meals to all school students that need them. Currently, um, not all schools in North Carolina offer free meals at no cost to all students. And so having the funding available to be able to do that, regardless of the household income, is another another challenge as well.
SPEAKER_04And you all mentioned, all three mentioned funding. And I know that we're hearing so much in the world today. If you're willing to talk a little bit, I wonder if you have thoughts or concerns about what's coming for the next school year compared to even what the funding challenges are today.
SPEAKER_02If any of you want to expound on that a bit, the way we're funded as a state is based on two years ago. So two years ago, that participation funds are the work that we do today. So we're coming out of this post-COVID funding era for all of us. Um, and we're gonna see that hit the school meal program as far as what we're being allocated from USDA in the next school year. So it'll be really interesting to see how our funding is going to be shifting just based on the way we are currently funded. And then obviously we're keeping a close eye on what's happening at the federal level to see if there will be any funding shifts or budgetary shifts in the future.
SPEAKER_01As far as you know, buying local, um, we had federal dollars. North Carolina received $5 million in federal dollars for our school nutrition programs to buy local. Uh, we were supposed to have another influx of money coming in, and that was canceled. And so that money allowed schools to really focus on local and buy some local products that they may not have been able to buy otherwise, whether it be fruits and vegetables, whether it be rice, grains, uh milk, meat. Um, and so to have that cut, um, schools are still able to buy produce. They they're just having to spend the dollars that they have, that four dollars and and some change that Rachel referenced earlier. They're having to spend their budget on that. And so it does make it more difficult um to purchase. And they're probably purchasing smaller amounts of local based on that funding loss.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. And you're I think you're helping all of us understand so many pieces. So thank you for doing that. Um, Jessica, I'd love to hear a little more about the vision behind School Meals for All North Carolina and what universal school meals would mean for students, families, and schools.
SPEAKER_03School Meals for All North Carolina believes that no child should go hungry and that every child in every public school in North Carolina should have access to school breakfast and school lunch at no cost to their families. Making school meals available at no cost to all public school students means that all students, regardless of their household income, would have access to a reliable source of nutritious breakfasts and lunches, and that their families don't need to worry about how they're going to provide those meals to their families while they're in school. That also leaves the families with more money to help them pay for other expenses that they may have. So things like their rent, bills, healthcare costs. Um schools also benefit because students can't focus if they're hungry. And so, in order to make sure that you have students who are at school ready to learn, ready to participate in class, you really need students that are fed and have had a nutritious meal. And so studies have shown that kids who eat school meals actually do better in school, and that offering school meals at no cost to all students can improve attendance. School meals is also related to student behavior, and it can positively impact that and lead to reduced behavioral issues. Um, so that impacts not just the individual students, but also the other students in their class that they interact with, as well as their staff, the staff and the teachers as well. So, overall, I'd say making school meals available at no cost to all public school students in North Carolina would have significant benefits on the states, both for the individual students, for their families, um but just overall for the state as well.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Really affecting every single thing about a child's readiness to learn, right? Is what you all are are saying. Heather, I wonder if you can help all of us understand, too, how the Department of Agriculture works to connect North Carolina's farmers with school cafeterias. I know that's a lot of your work in particular.
SPEAKER_01We are very fortunate in North Carolina to have the farm to school program that we have. It's the only one of its model in the nation. Uh so the North Carolina Department of Agriculture started our farm school program in 1997. Uh, we have a food distribution division that has its own warehouses, its own trucks. So we were already delivering um USDA commodities to schools. And so we thought, well, let's try fresh, fresh fruits and vegetables. So we started with strawberries, the most perishable thing, because if we can get strawberries delivered, we can do anything, right? So we started with strawberries. Uh, we've now been doing the program for 20 plus years. We've expanded fresh fruits and vegetables. We have value-added products, we offer rice, uh, beef, uh, so proteins as well. And one of the great things about the state program is we take care of the procurement process for schools because all food has to be procured following national, state, local standards. Um, so we take care of that procurement process, making sure that all of those regulations are followed. So schools that can can just order from us um know they're getting North Carolina products and get that um delivered however they like us to deliver it. Uh, we also work directly with schools um that maybe want to procure from a local farmer and making that connection local being down the road within the county. Um, of course, we're a state agency, so we farm school for us is any farmer within the state of North Carolina. Um, but there are some smaller farmers that don't have the capacity for a statewide program because they don't have the infrastructure to sell at a wholesale level, which is what we do. So, but maybe they can supply two schools in a school district. And so we're connecting those farmers with the school nutrition directors in those school districts as well, so that they could look at doing uh direct buy options. Um, because our goal is we want school nutrition programs to have local food in their cafeterias for their breakfast and lunch programs. And anything that we can do to support that, um, we're working to make those connections happen.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much. After the break, we'll continue our conversation. Welcome back. We are so pleased to continue our discussion with Dr. Jessica Soldavini, Rachel Finley, and Heather Lifsey. Rachel, learning kind of all the different people involved in this work, I wonder how you see DPI's role in supporting school nutrition innovation at the local level, especially as new challenges and opportunities emerge.
SPEAKER_02Yes, we manage the monitoring and compliance and continuing education part of their programs at the local level. So, really, our role would be in the innovation space, we want to make sure it's just compliant with federal and state requirements, and then we want to get out of the way. We want these school nutrition directors to be innovating as much as they can with the confines of the program. So, as a state agency, our goal is to maintain as many flexibilities as our regulatory environment will allow because every school is different and every school has different needs, and we want those directors and school nutrition administrators to be responsive to that and be able to innovate with their within their districts, within their schools.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful. And I know um one of the things that we want to talk a little bit about is what role stigma might play and how students experience school meals. And um and Jessica, I think that's something you know quite a bit about and kind of goes into your um URL's advocacy around universal access. So can you talk a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um there can be a lot of stigma associated with the school meals programs with the way that they currently operate. So when you have a system where some students are able to get meals at no cost and then others have to pay based, and that's based on what their family makes, it makes students feel um shame. It makes them feel afraid to go to the cafeteria and get a school meal if they qualify for free meals because they're afraid of how the other students perceive them. So if there's, you know, if we're able to make school meals available at no cost to all students, then it doesn't become a program that is, you know, based on your income level, and students wouldn't have to worry about how other students are perceiving them based on that. Um, one of the things I think is helpful to think about is that when it comes to public education, um, other aspects of public education, such as being able to go to school, whether you take the school bus, whether you have access to other resources in the school, those aren't based on your income. All of the kids, regardless of income, are able to access those things. But when it comes to the school cafeteria and getting your breakfast and lunch, there are those differences there. Um so all students are able to participate, um, but even though with the way it is now with the different categories of free reduced of having some students pay, but there is still, it creates that stigma when you it's viewed as a program for the lower income students because it does have that income connection to it.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Um and Heather, you know, one of the things I loved your explanation about your farm to school program, but could you talk a little bit about how that is both good for student health, but also our state economy?
SPEAKER_01Certainly. So when you're putting fresh fruits and vegetables in the school lunch program, we've seen that student participation increases. The students get excited when they know it's from North Carolina. Um, we hear that all the time from staff that we talk to. They're learning where their food comes from. Uh, because unfortunately, if you ask a lot of students, where does food come from? They say the grocery store. And we want them to understand that you might have bought it from the grocery store, but there's a farmer that grew it somewhere. Um, so they can help those farm to school programs can help students understand where their food comes from. They're more willing to try it in a school nutrition environment, particularly when it's you know free for all students, um, and they get to try it. And it also helps create uh decrease some of those diet-related um diseases because they are getting those healthy meals at school, um, healthier than they may be getting at home. Um, and so that's on the student end, but then also on the farmer side, we're supporting local farmers. We are supporting local businesses. Agriculture is the number one industry in our state. We are one of the most diverse uh states in the country as far as we grow over 80 different uh commodities, fruits, vegetables, grains, proteins. Um, and so there's been research that for every $100 spent locally, um, they've estimated $68 remains in the local economy. Because if you're supporting a local farmer, they're in turn spending that money at local businesses and they're supporting local businesses. And these local farmers are the ones that are supporting um farm to school efforts. They're going to the schools and being guest speakers, they're supporting the little league baseball teams and really feeding into that community. And so for a lot of these students, when they see food from their local farmers, they know them. They know that's their neighbor or they've heard of them or they recognize them. And so that adds to that excitement. Um, and so it's really a win-win for the farmers and it's a win-win um for the students as well to have local foods in the school nutrition program.
SPEAKER_04Thank you so much. And now we want to get some advice from all of you on a couple of different things. So the first one is that if there were one policy change investment that could make the biggest difference in improving school nutrition, what would it be? So, what is your policy recommendation? And Rachel, I'm gonna start with you.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's always gonna be more funding, right? The policy recommendation is always going to be at the state level, can we do meals at no cost for all students? That's that's the dream is that students walk into the cafeteria and it doesn't matter where they come from, who their parents are, how much money anyone has in anyone's bank account, they get to walk into the cafeteria and enjoy a healthy, nutritious meal. And we have several students, uh, a big cohort of students who fall into what we call the hunger gap. And the hunger gap are the students who don't qualify for free or reduced price meals, but their family doesn't make enough for them to pay for meals. And so, and with the inflationary pressures that families are seeing today, the hunger gap is widening, but we're not taking that to account at the federal level for how we're extending benefits to students, whether they can receive free or reduced price meals. So I mean, the best part of the best policy ever would be to remove all the policies and let let us feed students healthy, delicious meals at no cost for sure.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Rachel.
SPEAKER_03Jessica? Yeah, I agree. Um, school meals for all would be um, you know, a really great next, really great policy solution for addressing um issues there. Um, Rachel had mentioned the hunger gap. There's data from Feeding America that estimates that more than a quarter of children in North Carolina who experience food insecurity um likely don't qualify for free school meals. So that is a pretty significant um number there. And so just taking away all of those barriers and making breakfast and lunch available at no cost would really um really benefit students and families in our state. Um, I think also having an income cutoff, it's very challenging because how do you determine what is enough money for a family to be able to afford food for their for their kids? Um, you know, every family's income situation is different. Um, you know, also different parts of the country have different costs of living. Um so there's just many barriers. And just being a few dollars over and then you don't qualify doesn't mean that all of a sudden you can afford breakfast and lunch every day for all of your children. So um, yeah, again, just highlighting the school meals for all would be would be a really great policy to help um kids with accessing meals.
SPEAKER_01Um certainly I'll echo the school meals for all, but I would also like to see local foods on all of those school meals. And one that we way we can do that is by investing in infrastructure. Uh, one of the challenges to school meals is we have a lot of school districts that don't have central warehouses that don't have refrigerated trucks. And if you're going to look at food safety, you need to move your produce in a refrigerated truck. And so that's a challenge when we're trying to get local foods is the school districts that don't have a central warehouse, that don't have refrigerated transportation, that's a barrier for them to be able to have more local foods in their school nutrition program. So let's certainly fund school meals for all, and then let's fund that infrastructure so that we can have local school meals for all.
SPEAKER_04So I know one of the things that is often asked is how can parents or advocates support stronger, more equitable school nutrition programs or just food insecurity in general? So, what advice do you have for people who also really care about this issue and would like to support some of the things that you all have talked about today? And this is a bit of a sprint question. So, Jessica, I'll start with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so many people are unaware of the benefits of school nutrition programs and the critical role that they play in helping students succeed in school. And so I encourage the public to help raise awareness of the importance of these programs. I think it's important to talk about these programs, make sure people are aware. Um, and so one way that people can do that is to get involved with School Meals for All North Carolina. Um, so there's many opportunities through that to both learn more about school meals as well as um help share information. And so we've got um meetings and events that people can participate in. We also have opportunities to help individuals share their school meal story and help get that out. Um, and then there's also opportunities to become a School Meals for All North Carolina ambassador or champion for people that really want to get more engaged. Um, so if you want to, if anyone wants to learn more about these opportunities, you can check out um the School Meals for All North Carolina website, which is at schoolmealsforall nc.org. And you can learn more.
SPEAKER_04Awesome. Thank you, Jessica. Rachel, what's your um advice?
SPEAKER_02So anytime I used to be a director of a program in the district, and every time I had an angry parent call me and was railing against something about the menu, by the time we got off of the conversation, I had them writing their lawmakers because that was the only choice that I could provide to them that was an actionable item a lot of times when it came to the menu. So advocating, learning about the programs, learning about the programs in their individual districts or their schools, they're in a charter school. School, the parents, and then advocating for the programs at the federal level and even at the state level too. Although we don't we don't get quite as much money from the state level as we do the federal level. We're mostly federally funded. Um but I can encourage folks, no no school nutrition director wakes up and thinks, uh, what am I gonna put on the menu today? Everything is carefully, carefully planned months in advance with a budget that's precariously teetering on the edge. So learn about our programs and then you can help us advocate for our programs so that they see that it's important to those that are outside of the traditional K-12 environment too. If it's important to students, if it's important to parents, if it's important to us, and it's important to everyone.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Rachel. Heather, you get the last word on advice. Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, someone earlier mentioned stigma that there being a stigma with children in school meals. But I think that a lot of parents and people in the community also have a stigma about what school meals are. Like you say school meals, and they're like, ugh, because they don't know. They they know what they had when they were a student. And depending on where you fall, you had the late lunch ladies that served it from scratch, or you had the cheese pizza that you peeled the cheese off and ate it separate from the rectangle bread. Um, so getting into the schools, going into your children's schools, talking to the people in the cafeteria, eating lunch with your student and see the amazing things that school nutrition people are doing with less than $5 to put this nutrition meal together and asking what are their needs, because it was mentioned earlier, your needs vary by district. A southern end of the county may have district different needs than a northern end of the county. Counties are different. Um, we've been in school districts that didn't have spinners to spin salad. Um, so that was a barrier to serving fresh, you know, fresh lettuce, buying local fresh lettuce. Um, so knowing what your individual school's needs are, school districts' needs are, and then you can advocate knowing this is going to make a difference for my children, uh, their friends, and for all the children in our community.
SPEAKER_04Well, thank you all so much. I'm so grateful that we have the three of you out there working for kids every single day. And I just thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for taking time with us to learn and think about education. That's all for today, and we'll see you next week.